Advice Sought fm Web Gurus

[valexplore]

I intend to change my career to webmaster/designer/developer and have no background in the technology involved. I can either take a full university certification course (costing near $9K) or take individual courses, or even teach myself with the aid of texts and BBs. I was wondering what experienced web gurus think I should do. I would like to take the most efficient, cost-effective route, but I'd also like to make sure that I am grounded in the technology. I don't want to just be a designer, as that's only 1/2 the job. From what I've read, I will have to know at least HTML 4 (I am reading up on that right now), CGI, Perl, Javascript, Dreamweaver and Cold Fusion. But, what about the fundamentals of networking? Right now I know very little. The university cert. course in the core technologies is summarized as follows: "The Core Technologies program is designed to introduce students to the basic tenets of networking. This includes network terms and concepts, topologies of networking, and how the OSI model relates to networking protocols. The components of LAN, WAN and Network Operating Systems are covered. With TCP/IP being the backbone technology of the Internet, students will use TCP/IP applications and learn TCP/IP addressing and subnetting. The final course, Internet Technologies, will cover the Internet and the actual duties of a working Webmaster." (It also includes the creation of a web page.) Two NACSE tests are included: Associate Network Specialist and NACSE Web Technician. The fall term costs $4K and includes membership in NACSE, the texts and the test fees. Is this a rip-off? Can I teach myself these concepts? What would you recommend? I want to make sure that I am highly desirable to future employers.
Many thanks in advance for your time and advice.

[Vincent Puglia]

Hi Valerie,

Begin :loop
I'm not a web guru; I'm a programmer. That said:
I presume you are talking about a school you found in a matchbook or somesuch? My opinion only: yes, it is a rip-off. You would be better off going to a local community college or signing up for one of the courses at Microsoft (though those would be IE-oriented).
Insofar as languages and technologies: html, javascript, css, php, asp, perl, mySql, and SQL Server.
Dreamweaver, Flash, etc are essentially toys (I'm gonna get jumped on for that) -- if you know the above, you should be able to learn them on the job.
Cold Fusion is a 3rd-Party middleware -- same rule for toys applies.
Insofar as network technologies: If you don't intend to do any 'real' programming, there is very little you need to know you can't find in O'Reilly's WebMaster Guide in a Nutshell (or somesuch). Designing content is different than designing and implementing intranets, firewalls, secure sites, etc. To design an effective site, you need some knowledge of how servers are set up and work, but you do not need to know TCP/IP addressing, etc.
Check out any book by O'Reilly publishers. They tend to slap everything you need to know within them; they only neglect to tell you how to use what they print. That's why a background in programming concepts helps.
Finally, I do not have a degree or any certification. I am not telling you this not because you can be successful without either (you can), but because many established firms refuse to provide opportunities if you do not have the paperwork. There is a large pool of people out there who claim to be web gurus/designers/etc. The first thing employers use to filter is the certification and/or degree. The second is ability. (Horse's butt backwards, but what the hay -- I don't write the rules; I only play the game [on my terms])
End :loop

[valexplore]

Vincent, interesting remark about the school. It's the University of Colorado, which is teaming up with WestNet Learning Technologies to provide this certification. I don't remember if the content of the courses was determined jointly, or if WestNet made the decree and CU just accepted it. I have been wondering if I would be able to school myself well enough to then take the NACSE tests on my own. I think I'll call NACSE today to get their take on it. I would really prefer to have my days and nights on a schedule, with a supervised laboratory. After all, if I screw up, how will I know? And, if I have questions, who can I turn to? I guess the web BBs would be my only resource. I will definitely take a look at the O'Reilly book series. Thank you so much for your advice!

[gzazJim]

Valerie,

Just my two-cents here...

I went to a "Computer School" for my degree in SOftware Engineering, and the best two things I learned were...

1) Comment your code whenever possible - that way you (and whomever comes after you) will know what you were trying to do originally!

2) Indent your code in such a way as to make it readable.

One more thing... Never go to (an expensive) school to learn a software program! Things change so fast that by the time you've learned version A.B.C, they're already on version X.Y.Z (which is often owned by a different company and now has a different interface, etc...)!

Vincent's advice is sound. Be very careful of any school that throws around the "latest and greatest" technologies - it's often just a way to get money out of your pocket and into theirs.

Good luck!!

Jim

P.S. Sorry if I sound a bit bitter - I got badly burned by just such rosy promises, which is why instead of a bachelor's degree, I have an associates in Software Engineering.

[Vincent Puglia]

Hi Valerie,

CU is out for the money. More so today than yesteryear, universities are being run as businesses, to paraphrase: money talks, nobody balks.
It is true that an authority figure is good to have when trouble arises. But, is he/she worth the money? I knew too many 'professors' and 'instructors' who were definitely of the "Those that can, do. Those that can't teach." variety. (IMHO, I taught; they took attendance.)
What gzazJim says about learning versions is TRUE. If all they intend is to teach you HTML 4.0 rather than programming/scripting theory/techniques, you are in very deeeep horse manure.
Ultimately, though, it is your future. You should know how well and easily you pick up new things. If you have the type of mind that clicks the first time, learn how to build the bricks and the foundation, the actual buildings are just half a dozen of one and six of the other.

Vinny

[gzazJim]

Vincent & Valerie,

Wow Vinny, we BOTH sound bitter - nice to know I'm not alone :)

Seriously though - Schools these days will promise you virtually ANYTHING to get your money. I was promised many things by the school I attended, and after all was said and done, they couldn't even spell my name right on my diploma.

Learn by doing Valerie. If the degree is really imporetant to you, that's great, but don't get railroaded into a program or a school that's going to throw a lot of software-oriented "skills" classes at you ("Wow - next semester, I get to learn Office 2001 for Mac!" or something like that...).

Look very carefully at the school and it's curriculum; Talk to graduates (NOT those that are now working at the school...!); Find out about the school's accredidation and who their teachers are. A good school with a solid program won't be afraid of your wanting to research their background.

Here's one final thought - Ultimately, the choice is yours. If you were buying a car or a house, you'd want to know that they were sound investments, right? Well, the same can be said of any school - Don't get caught up in the excitement and hype that they seem to try to build up around themselves!

Peace, and best of luck to you!

Jim

[valexplore]

Jim and Vinny,
Thanks again for your thoughts. I agree totally that the universities are out for the big bucks. I couldn't believe how much this one year could cost me. I've posted on another BB and got similar responses. At this point I am definitely leaning away from enrolling at CU. I am, in fact, going to check out the local community college where I'd be able to pick and choose courses. Since I don't have a graphic design background, I think it would be wise to get a couple of those courses under my belt. It's also wise to do what you suggest and learn the fundamentals, so that they can be built upon later. I will see if the instructors will give me the names of successful students. I know how you feel about being burned. Looking back over the educational institutions I've attended (for coursework up to and including my M.A.) I can safely say that much of it was a waste of money and precious time. I do pick many things up quickly - though I don't think I have a head for mathematics or programming. I feel that I'd be very good at web design and writing the content. I enjoy working with graphics (something I've done only in my spare time)and have a good eye for detail. And, God knows, I've visited enough web pages to know what does and doesn't work. If you'd like, I'll keep you updated on what I decide. Thanks so much for your time and consideration.

[Vincent Puglia]

Hi,

One last thought (well maybe not my last thought -- I mean I hope not -- oh oh rambling again.)

Put up a homepage. Design some sites for your friends. Find sites that you don't think look good. Redesign them, then offer them to the site's owner -- gratis, if necessary. It's one way to build up a portfolio.

Vinny

[valexplore]

Vinny,

I will definitely put together a portfolio. And, I love your idea about re-designing an awful site. I just saw one of those recently and was wondering what the designer had been thinking (or drinking). :)

Val

[big_wreck]

Hi there,

my advice can be summed up with this quote from Vinny:



Out...#@@$%#@!$#...Rageous!!!
Shoot Big_Wreck, were you the squirt who came in on this forum not knowing anything? And now look at ya!


After 60 days of spare-timing it, I have learned a TREMENDOUS amout of material. Only knowing HTML / CSS and a spattering of Javascript, I now feel much more comfortable with Javascript, PHP, MySQL, Perl/CGI etc .. (all those toys:))

Having said that I do have a programming / networking background across a wide variety of platforms so maybe that helped, but it would never be worth thousands of dollars to have people teach you this stuff in the classroom, especially when you have these fine people here that you can ask the ultimate in silly questions to and they will almost always give you the answer or where to go to find it.

Good luck and visit often ...

[valexplore]

big_wreck,

Thanks, I intend to keep in regular touch. People helping people is what it's all about. And this is such a friendly board. BTW, I am seriously considering attending Thunder Lizard's Web Design Conference in late September (in Denver). Hopefully, I'll have completed a website by that time. Of course, the price tag is rather high. ($800 for 2 days, or $1K if you attend the third day, which has some interesting seminars regarding webpage accessibility for disabled people). The speakers & subjects sound very interesting, and I'll walk away with conference notes. Have any of you attended a TLP conference? If so, was it worth the price of admission?

[Vincent Puglia]

Hi big_wreck,

Gee...[blush, blush]...quoting my cusswords :) BTW: when I freelanced with PC Magazine (early 80s), they called the room with all the review software/hardware: The Toy Shop. Unfortunately, some biggie in ZiffDavis decided the label wasn't 'corporate' enough, especially when it showed up in print :) So, it was switched to: PC Labs. About then disillusionment began setting in.

Hi Val,

Gee, but you've got pesos to throw around. :)
Never been there. Went to a few conferences way generations back -- including a few StarTrek ones :) I would say they are all about the same. You get what you can extract. Most of it will probably be booths. The actual conferences will vary from overly-techie and better found in print (so you can instant replay the parts you didn't get) to shouting matches between opposing points of view.
It wouldn't hurt to go to at least one conference. You never know whom you'll meet and what you'll learn. Worse gets to worst, you'll have learned to leave the ticket purchasing to the corporation you end up working for.

Hi Jim,
Me bitter? Nah. I love lernen my reedin, rightin, ritmatik.
I'm an accredited HS, College, Grad School dropout (who's giving me the credentials I'm not sure :) I taught at ESL and Bilingual English at a community college for a max of $6 an hour in the 70s because I was a college assistant, there was a lack of accredited professors, the city wouldn't put up more money, open admissions had just begun, and the assigned professors wouldn't show for class as long as I was there (I intimidated the sheet out of them).
When I get back into my yuppie stage and have enough bucks to spare, I fully intend to go back to school -- think I'll start up my fifth major (Anthropology).
Vinny

[valexplore]

Vinny,

I am willing to dip into my savings account to make a sound investment in myself. I've spent half my life not doing anything exciting or rewarding. The time for a big change has come. However, I don't want to squander my savings, either. I'm just middle-middle class, and if things don't change soon (as far as earning a greater salary) I'll never be able to retire.

Val

[gzazJim]

Valerie,

One suggestion I would make is to look for a local "Internet Professionals" organization. I belong to AZIPA (Arizona Internet Professionals Association), and while the meetings tend to be a bit disorganized (not to mention drunk-fests... :) ) They have been instrumental in getting me some really good contacts. Moreover, boards such as this one will be an invaluable resource for furthering yourself.

Keep pluggin and keep your sights on what YOU want - not what any school or seminar tells you to think. And, take everything anyone tells you with a grain of salt - well, except me of course! :D

Good luck!

Jim

[valexplore]

Jim,
Thanks for the suggestion about joining an Internet professionals association. I recently joined Women In Technology International. The Denver chapter is very active and the women are friendly and supportive. I'll let you know what I end up doing about educating myself.
Val

[able]

Valerie,
Well, here it goes...
I have been with computers now for about 8 or 9 years...
I started with the old DOS stuff and found computers to be something that "I LIKE TO DO". If your just looking for a "JOB", go to Burger King, there hiring. Please, do not get into the business unless you “ENJOY BASHING YOUR HEAD AGAINST THE WALL”. This can be one of the most frustrating trades out there. If you are set on becoming a BINNARY BRAIN (ones and zeros for the rest of you), then do what you are doing now, seek help from those who have nothing to gain by giving it to you.. as my grandpa whould say ‘The best advice is FREE!’. Pick up a good Manual (Book to the rest of you..) and just don’t read it, STUDY IT. Prove to yourself if the manual is right or wrong, I have found some errors in the best of them. When I thought Computer Repair, one of the most important things I thought was not HOW TO FIX the computer, but WHERE TO GET THE INFORMATION TO FIX IT… There are hundereds if not thousands of web sites just for US.
Like Vincent, I have no papers (degree or any certification). I always have people (boys and girls alike) come into my store (Redding Discount Computer of Redding California) wanting a job in computer ‘whatever’. Sure they have there degree, certification, a note form there mothers, etc.. saying that they have been tought this or that, but that does’nt mean that they can do it…
Hang in with the crowd…
You will get there…
James
http://www.itsaserver.com

[valexplore]

James,

I am certainly not just "looking for a job" in regard to web design. (At present I'm looking for an administrative job because that's all I'm trained to do. But, these jobs are tedious, boring, repetitive, and generally intellectually unchallenging, not to mention non-creative.) I think that I'll like web design because it is intellectually challenging and creative. I realize that there are aspects to it that are not. But, that's true in every job. Thank you for taking the time to give me your two cents. I truly appreciate it.

Val